FIVE GRAVES TO CAIRO

Ian 01:09

Squishy Cows.

Matthew 01:11

We're continuing with another movie that I was introduced to by Mrs. Darling Wife when she was Miss Darling Girlfriend. And, and it was introduced to me via her because this was a favorite movie of her dad's. Oh, yeah. Your, your pa.

Ian 01:32

That makes sense, and it explains why I've seen this movie before.

Matthew 01:36

Mm-hmm.

Ian 01:37

I always like to be open and honest with our audience when I've seen a piece before I, we've re-watched it again for the podcast, and I absolutely knew I had, but I didn't remember it from the name.

Matthew 01:49

Ah.

Ian 01:51

Which is very fascinating because of how important the name is.

Matthew 01:54

Interesting. And this is, we should say up front too that this is a movie, it's hard to talk about without some spoilers.

Ian 02:03

Yes.

Matthew 02:04

I think we can avoid the big spoiler as to what the name specifically refers to, or at least what the solution is as to locations.

Ian 02:15

Oh, I feel like you already gave so much away with that line.

Matthew 02:18

Well, I mean, there's, we, we got, we were talking about the plot a little bit, but-

Ian 02:21

Yeah ...

Matthew 02:22

in that last act of the movie- I think, I think we can ... is when they discover what the, what the secret. There's, there's a m- little informational MacGuffin- Mm that becomes, halfway through the movie, becomes critical.

Ian 02:32

Yeah. That, I think we can do that too. Usually the IMMP, for anyone who is just listening to us for the first time or has been listening to us for all 200 something episodes, we have a permanent spoiler tag. But this is one- Yeah ... of those rare, uh, those rare anti-spoiler warnings where we're telling you we're not going to, tell you actually what happens completely.

Matthew 02:53

Yeah. So there, there will be spoilers. If you can watch this movie, if hopefully if you have watched this movie, great. If you can watch this movie before listening to the episode, great. We'll try not to damage it too much otherwise. and that movie that you would need to go see is Five Graves to Cairo.

Ian 03:13

Yeah, from 1943. We're going black and white films on this.

Matthew 03:18

And this is a, a World War II movie released in the middle of World War II.

Ian 03:24

That's wild to me for multiple reasons I wanna talk about later, but yeah.

Matthew 03:30

And directed and co-written by Billy Wilder. And I don't know, have we talked about any Billy Wilder movies on this podcast yet?

Ian 03:42

I don't know

Matthew 03:43

I, I don't have all of them ready to hand in my memory, thanks to our having done so many episodes by now, But searching for Billy Wilder on our website, I, I, I don't think we have talked about any Billy Wilder movies, and there are so many- Yeah that we could talk about. Some Like It Hot and, Sunset Boulevard, and he was such a great screenwriter and then director.

Ian 04:04

And yeah, he was making, his filmography stretches from '34 to '81.

Matthew 04:09

Yep.

Ian 04:12

That's... I don't know. No, even before that. Oh, in 29 if you, uh, count writing.

Matthew 04:18

Yeah. Yeah, he started as a, a very popular screenwriter.

Ian 04:23

That is just wild. That length, that- scale across so many eras of film. The, the Hollywood of the '30s is such a different beast than the Hollywood of the '70s. And he entering even just that little bit into the '80s, the m- the medium had changed so much. I'm astounded. So I get the feeling that this is gonna be one of those people we, we encounter in other episodes from here on out. Wow. This is the start of a of one of our little running through lines.

Matthew 04:58

Yeah, yeah. N- no question. We're gonna have to return to Billy Wilder. But this is a movie... And I was a real big fan of Billy Wilder movies, and I saw this, again because it was on local TV and I watched it with, Miss Darling Girlfriend and, uh, and her dad, and didn't realize at the time, "Oh, this is a, another one by Billy Wilder."

Ian 05:21

Mm-hmm. I want to say this is not, this is set during World War II, but it's not, or it's set during the war but it's not a war movie. It's a spy movie.

Matthew 05:35

Yes. It's more of a spy thriller in this little pressure cooker kind of environment.

Ian 05:43

Yes.

Matthew 05:43

It's set in a hotel in Egypt, in a part of Egypt that has just been overrun and occupied by Field Marshal Rommel and his Afrika Korps the British have, have run away, have a- uh, abandoned the place. And, but the only thing left in this little town is this hotel. It's partly damaged, but the Germans are taking it over for their, field headquarters before they move on to their next objective as they march across, or they roll across Egypt towards Cairo and the Suez Canal. Mm-hmm.

In this hotel, however, in addition to the two people who work there, is a British soldier A guy whose, whose tank division was destroyed by Rommel's latest offensive, and who was the only survivor in his, vehicle, and wound up walking across the desert for days and arrives, uh, with sunstroke and delirium, barely alive Yeah.

Ian 06:52

We actually, we actually get the opening of this is him crawling away from his tank, which is still running. Just moving across with everyone dead inside 'cause their, the controls are jammed. Hmm. And him crawling out and walking across, and we get... He is very much a the camera follows him person.

Matthew 07:10

Yeah.

Ian 07:11

You know? So, Corporal John Bramble, he's the one who comes upon this hotel and We get introduced to everyone there, but the focus never really leaves him, and that's really part of what it is, I'd say.

Matthew 07:25

Yeah, there are a few scenes in which he is not present because they focus on the, the second main character, the secondary character.

Ian 07:33

Yeah.

Matthew 07:34

Uh, but not very much. It's mostly about him and more or less from his point of view in that sense. We're only seeing what he is aware of, uh, for most of the movie.

Ian 07:46

Yeah.

Matthew 07:47

And the, the, the two people who are left at this hotel when he arrives, there is the owner of the hotel who's this very nervous... He's a, a, a comic character, uh, Farid, played by, Akim Tamiroff.

Ian 08:04

Mm-hmm.

Matthew 08:05

And he's a kind of the nervous, bumbling, tripping over his own words sort of comic character, but he's the one who owns the hotel. He's the one who's responsible if anything goes wrong. And then there's Anne Baxter as the housekeeper of the hotel, who's, goes by the name Mouche.

Ian 08:24

Yep. Madame Marie-Jacques Claire Mouche.

Matthew 08:27

And she is French. She is an French expatriate- Yes ... that came to, to Egypt, uh, and has just been working there. But she also has an agenda of her own that we learn throughout this. Mm-hmm. And she is not particularly welcoming of having this British soldier there at the hotel when the Germans are on their way, 'cause they haven't yet arrived- Yeah ... when we, we see this hotel.

Ian 08:55

But that's, that's where we get this setup. We've got these two people awaiting. They've got incoming German soldiers, and we've got, Franchot tone as Corporal John Bramble, having wandered in and getting care. You know, g- you know, "Get some water in this man, get him up." But we know they're gonna just shoot him.

Matthew 09:15

Yeah. And Farid, int- he's, he's a comic character. He's bumbling. Mm-hmm. But he's a very, very kind character. He's s- Yes ... super nervous. He doesn't want to contribute to anybody else's hardship.

Ian 09:30

Mm-hmm.

Matthew 09:31

Uh, but he is very, also extremely nervous as to what happens to him if he's caught helping the wrong people.

Ian 09:39

So how do we hide, how do we hide this British soldier we're helping?

Matthew 09:47

And at first it's, they, they just want him to go away, run away. You know, you- Yeah ... you can't be here. The Germans are on their way. If they find you, they'll shoot you.

Ian 09:54

Mm-hmm.

Matthew 09:55

Uh, and, and yet there's nowhere for him to go. They're just surrounded by desert. The desert itself is, to the extent it's inhabited, it's occupied by the, the German army.

Ian 10:09

Yes.

Matthew 10:09

So he stays there and finds some clothes, and in talking with Farid and Mouche learns that there was another person working here. Well, there were a few people working here, and we get this comic description of what happened to all of them. Who, the, the various people, when they ran away and who they ran away with, which was not necessarily the people they were married to.

Ian 10:34

Yeah. It, that was very odd.

Matthew 10:37

So it's got a lot of that, and that's in a great example of that kind of Billy Wilder banter, some of the strange rambling and yet w- oddly logical things that Farid gets to say, his weird long speeches.

Ian 10:48

The, yeah, it's, it's interesting 'cause it really at times, uh, you know, John Bramble and, and Mouche there are in this spy thriller going back and forth, and Farid is there running a who's on first

Matthew 11:03

Yes, yes

Ian 11:04

alongside them.

Matthew 11:06

Yeah.

Ian 11:06

Where he is referencing one line back from whatever they're talking about as they go back and forth.

Matthew 11:12

Yeah, he's kind of visiting from another version of the movie, and yet it works.

Ian 11:16

Oh, absolutely. There's... You know. But he, at the same time, he's still a serious character.

Matthew 11:23

Yes.

Ian 11:23

Because you get this feeling of like everyone else here is transitory.

Matthew 11:27

Mm-hmm.

Ian 11:28

Everyone else is coming in and leaving, and for him, this is his home, and it's... He is a person who runs a hotel. He is a man who invites guests.

Matthew 11:38

Right.

Ian 11:39

And yet he is very, very nervous about all these guests and all of them not liking each other. And so his cortisol is to the sky.

Matthew 11:48

And he knows what the stakes are.

Ian 11:51

Yeah. There's something very valub- valuable about a, a comic relief character who is not out of place.

Matthew 11:59

And I- Something Wilder's very good at ...

Ian 12:01

yeah. And I like having that in here because it lets us get into the spy thriller element happening around him, and know that Farid will always be this heart keeping the thing running. And that spy thriller is full of amazing coincidences.

Matthew 12:20

Right.

Ian 12:21

I almost kind of want to point out that, we... I'm, I'm glad we're pointing out the silly, 'cause there's almost a bit of silliness in how well things line up at first.

Matthew 12:29

Yeah. Yeah. There is a, "Oh, somebody was here already to set up these dominoes, weren't they?"

Ian 12:34

Yeah. Because, you know, how are we gonna hide, Corporal Bramble? Well, he can pretend to be the butler that we said was, th- killed in the bomb, and he'll just say, "I was buried alive, but I climbed my way out."

Matthew 12:50

Yeah. So he puts on the clothes of the waiter Davos.

Ian 12:54

Davos.

Matthew 12:55

The other person working at the hotel who hadn't run away, Mm-hmm Persuades Farid and Mouche to go along with this, even though if, if the secret is discovered about who he really is, they're in just as much trouble as he is. And through this we also... This is a tense time because we learn that Mouche has absolutely no love for the British.

Ian 13:16

No.

Matthew 13:17

She is fiercely, resentful of the British going back to Dunkirk, and sees it as the British just ran away and left the, uh, the French on the beach to be killed or captured by the Germans.

Ian 13:33

Mm-hmm. So we get this, you know, she's mad at everybody in this place.

Matthew 13:38

Yes.

Ian 13:39

Bramble is now disguised as Davos and Farid is going along with it, and the Germans arrive And they're like, "Oh, good. You're alive, Davos. Come over here." "Okay, give us your report. You are our agent who inter- in- infiltrated this place a year ago." Oh.

Matthew 14:05

He is their, their advance guy for the German army. his job is to go to a city, get a job there, work for a year or more, delivering back intelligence and preparing things for, the German, occupation. And he, his latest assignment was to just work as the butler at this little hotel in Egypt, because it was on Rommel's plan as to the route he was gonna take across, uh, Egypt.

Ian 14:36

Yeah. So it's this wild, like, "I know I'll disguise as this dead guy. What do you mean he was an agent? I just got an in." Like, you know, can almost hear the mission, uh, the mission, uh, you know, pop up for the, for the game he's playing shift from survive to infiltrate.

Matthew 15:00

And as he is b- having this explained to him by the German lieutenant, and being brought to a meeting somewhere, he discovers, oh, Rommel himself is here.

Ian 15:12

Yeah.

Matthew 15:12

Field Marshal Erwin Rommel has arrived, and is, making this his headquarters, and wants a personal report from their guy, Davos. So he is stuck not knowing anything that Davos should know. And yet wanting ... In some ways, this is a better cover than just pretending to be the, the waiter. In some ways, it puts him in more danger, because he has to pretend to know things he doesn't know. But like you're saying, it also gives him an in, and he thought, "Oh, this gives me a chance to kill Rommel."

And I do have to step back a moment though and talk a little bit about how this is shot, especially when it comes to things like the arrival of the German forces at this hotel.

none 16:05

Mm-hmm.

Matthew 16:05

They come rolling in here at high speed in armored trucks and personnel carriers and things. And the way it is shot and the way we see it, it reminded me so much of what we saw in a movie made decades later from Mad Max.

Ian 16:25

Yeah.

Matthew 16:26

The way Toecutter and his gang roll into a town and just take it over, and the way we see it with their vehicles and their attitudes and their yelling. And, uh, th- the, this was shot to show, and that Rommel himself may have been a, a character, and is portrayed here as a character of fierce discipline.

Ian 16:46

Mm.

Matthew 16:47

The German troops are a gang, a gang of thugs.

Ian 16:51

They are. They are absolutely depicted as that. There is a bit of a weirdness with the fact that... I'll just make this clear. The, the general troops are shown as just vile gangsters, and it's very effective. I'm a little bothered with how this movie depicts the leaders of the groups.

Matthew 17:18

Yeah.

Ian 17:18

Because we wind up with Rommel, and we wind up with, an Italian general- Yes ... both being here, and each of their characterizations is extremely effective for the story this is telling, and yet I'm really surprised that this was during the war.

Matthew 17:38

Oh, why's that?

Ian 17:40

Because Rommel is shown as too competent.

Matthew 17:43

Mm-hmm.

Ian 17:44

And the Italian is shown as too bum- as so bumbling- ... that he, that there is something almost respectful and infantilizing to the point of removing some agency from each of these characters- Yeah ... in an unfortunate way. And I wanna point that out early because depictions of Nazis Is a very, very careful thing because showing them positively in any light, even to make them a valid villain, like showing them a competent villain is disconcerting because it's, it's kind of

I, I feel uncomfortable about that.

Matthew 18:30

Yes. And it's interesting to put this in perspective as to when it was, you know, during the war.

Ian 18:34

Mm-hmm.

Matthew 18:35

And this is an American movie, even though it deals with, uh, a British, corporal. And so it is from an American point of view of the war in that sense. And even then, I mean, based on news reports, Rommel was a figure in people's minds, and he was kind of viewed through much of this as, "Oh, he is, like, the best general the Germans have ever had. He is just running North Africa."

Ian 19:02

Mm-hmm.

Matthew 19:03

Uh, and there's n- uh, h- for, for many, many months there was just no sense of how can we possibly stop him because he is so competent and so disciplined and so well-equipped in North Africa. So it seems to me, just reading old news reports, he was sort of a super villain even in the news, and it wouldn't have You couldn't have had a serious movie, a thriller, that didn't portray him in a way that liv- uh, lived up to that. And it also makes the stakes extremely high.

Ian 19:38

Yes.

Matthew 19:38

And it's ... There's, there's, there's no point in denying the fact that even people who worked for that army and that regime included extremely educated and capable and, and, and competent and disciplined fighters like Rommel. Yeah. And that's what made it so important that we, we found ways to, uh, to work against that.

Ian 20:06

Absolutely you're right. There is, there was a lot of honest to goodness, skilled tactics and prominent figures.

Matthew 20:16

Mm-hmm.

Ian 20:17

But in terms of the balance, they do such a good job making the enemy soldiers just this gang of thugs like you're describing, that they undo so much of it with how much time they spend praising the creative craftiness of, of Rommel, and how out of it and not culpable they make the Italian general in this.

Matthew 20:44

Yeah.

Ian 20:44

That I feel that they, they spend the goodwill they gained from me very quickly in that back and forth.

Matthew 20:50

That's interesting. I mean, yeah, Rommel was kind of a Bond villain. I compare all movies to James Bond sometimes, but Rommel was kind of a Bond villain where at once... And there's a scene a little bit later where there are half a dozen, British officers who've been captured. Mm-hmm. And they're stopping at these, this headquarters before they're moved on to a PW- POW camp, and they're being served lunch and being hosted for luncheon by, by Rommel, and he's giving them little lessons in s- in strategy, which is, he had a reputation of doing this for captured enemy officers. He, because he had such an ego.

He wanted to- Mm ... show his brilliance to them. So it is kind of like Bond villain monologue, him giving away his great plans- Oh ... and things almost completely.

Ian 21:33

Entirely.

Matthew 21:34

And so there is that. I understand it works very well for a movie, and it fit with the pop culture, for lack of a better term, perception of Rommel at the time. But yeah, the Italian general, he is almost portrayed as just another kind of victim of-

Ian 21:51

Yes

Matthew 21:51

... the Nazi army. That he is complaining about the, they'll put the Italian troops on the front lines without letting their officers c- command them, and they're just used as fodder, and the Italian general is just, brought along as a figurehead and is very prideful, and yet he's very afraid of Rommel, and he loves to sing opera. So he's just kind of a, a goofy fellow victim in some ways, which is, yeah, letting them off the hook somewhat.

Ian 22:21

I do think they might have accidentally made a, a brilliant mistake with him

Matthew 22:28

Yeah?

Ian 22:29

because if I remember my history correctly, there was an entire push during that time by the fascist party of Italy against pasta.

Matthew 22:43

Yes.

Ian 22:44

And yet they make this general talk about, like, you should have some of the fettuccine at home.

Matthew 22:49

Yeah. Although that's-

Ian 22:51

Which m- almost... I, I'm not sure. I, I... Like, this might need to get cut out, but I almost feel like they made him seem like a double agent.

Matthew 23:00

Not a double agent.

Ian 23:01

By making weird references that a mayor- Americans would make about Italians, but not the Italians at the time would make- Yeah ... about what's going on with them.

Matthew 23:09

That is part of that, but they also, I think, make pretty clear that he may be a general in the Italian army, but he is not a fan of Mussolini.

Ian 23:22

Yeah.

Matthew 23:22

And he is a victim of the Germans. He's also kind of a victim of Mussolini. He talks about wanting to go home to Milano and realizes, no, it's no better there. So it's an odd, it's an odd character. In some ways they need another comic character along with Farid, uh, someone who has a different connection with the Germans. But I also, I don't know, but I wonder if that was kind of the American perception of Italian forces at the time.

Ian 23:52

It

Matthew 23:52

might have been. That they're, they're inconsequential and they're being dragged along

Ian 24:00

It's an odd thing, and I can't tell how much of it is stereotyping that feels off, or it was of its time since this was mid-war.

Matthew 24:12

Yeah. And it's not just the way he's portrayed to the audience. This is kind of the attitude that Corporal Bramble has to him, that he's a-

Ian 24:21

Mm-hmm ...

Matthew 24:21

he's a not terribly consequential, uh, not very intimidating... Yeah, he's on the other side, but he's no less stuck than I am. He's the man who- So I'll just chuckle at the fact that he loves to sing so much and that he's, but he's afraid of singing too loud because Rommel doesn't like it.

Ian 24:37

Yeah. He's the man that you can trick into stealing his gun, and then you're armed for the rest of the movie.

Matthew 24:42

That's true. That is the one, the one real functional role he has is the fact that, uh, Bramble gets his sidearm and figures, "Okay, when Rommel orders his coffee, I'll deliver it, and I'll deliver a, a slug as well."

Ian 24:58

Uh, there was something about that moment with, um, especially the, some of these moments where he's walking around. Bramble here is playing Davos, this club-footed butler. He's a handsome action star actor trying to hunch and look less appealing as a man because he's trying to blend in.

Matthew 25:19

And it works oddly well because one of Davos' shoes is built up as a platform because he had uneven, apparently uneven legs. Bramble, having to wear these shoes, it helps him, walk with a corresponding limp.

Ian 25:34

Exactly. So it all fits, but the there's something about that, and then combining with the distract someone over into one room. Pick up a gun in another. Yeah. Leave. Make a plan. It's like, I've played this level of Hitman.

Matthew 25:49

Yes.

Ian 25:50

It's very much, you know, why is this very tall man in a bald hat wearing anybody's uniform and getting away with whatever- ... wandering through and arming himself?

Matthew 26:02

It kind of plays with and subverts that idea that the servants are invisible. They're just part of the building, part of the furniture.

Ian 26:09

Yes.

Matthew 26:10

Because he is, uh, he's part playing a servant, and yet he's being watched so closely by Farid because Farid is so s- afraid. Uh, he's being watched so closely by Mouche because she doesn't want him to get in the way of her agenda, which we can talk about in a bit. Mm-hmm. And he is being regarded as something very different from just the waiter at the hotel by the Germans because he is their agent.

Yeah. And they're finding out what he knows. They're making plans to send him forward to Cairo, which is their next big, objective.

Ian 26:44

and he does a, he has a fun set of scenes being brought over to, to deliver information. And he plays it off with this, you know, very subservient, "Oh, of course, you know, I don't have to explain this to you. You know how these systems work. You're the ones who designed these things." It's like, "Oh, yeah, of course. We know how we s- How you, you sent the messages via the this system just fine." And it's, you know, just playing off of everyone's ego.

Matthew 27:11

Yes. He does a great job of sounding as if he knows so much that he doesn't have to say anything. Mm-hmm. And yet using that as a way to draw information out of, uh, out of the Germans.

Ian 27:26

And that's how he gets the title of the film, and he's now trying to figure out the mystery.

Matthew 27:32

Because this was revealed kind of as part of the lesson that Rommel was giving to the British officers at luncheon about how... And, and interesting points that Rommel was making. And again, this might factor into what public perception was at the time, that you British have a sixth sense. You can- Yes ... We Germans have only five, but we use them. We can't afford to improvise. The- That's a, yeah You are very good at improvisation, and we cannot afford to improvise.

So we must prepare and plan.

Ian 28:10

Mm-hmm.

Matthew 28:11

And the big mystery of how Rommel has been able to accomplish what he has in his conquest of North Africa is supply lines. How is he getting supplied? Uh, how is he getting the ammunition and fuel and water and everything else he needs? And he reveals that this was done years ago.

Ian 28:36

Yeah.

Matthew 28:37

We placed caches of all of these supplies years ago. But he re- stops short of saying exactly how and exactly where.

Ian 28:51

Mm-hmm. And

Matthew 28:51

now- And this great exchange between Davos, between Bramble, and one of the British officers who, another tense moment, one of the British officers had been at this hotel before when the British were controlling this little town. And he knew that this guy was not the waiter that he had met before, who was an old man. And this silent communication of looks and everything else- The British officer helps Bramble keep his cover and they have some communications and it's the British officer says, "No, your job is not to kill Rommel.

Your job is to get as much information as, as we can." And now that we've learned that there's something about these supply caches, that's now his job is to find out when and where and how this was done, especially where

Ian 29:43

And I do love the little bit of, like, revealing to, um, to this officer who he is by putting his dog tags- Yes on one of the bottles of, of liquor he's serving to the officers. And it's a, "Oh, would you like some whiskey?" Shows it, and there's his dog tags sitting there. Pours himself some. The Italian general coming over, "Oh, what's that one?" "Uh, bramble, sir." There's this little moment where you can almost...

It's, it's a, a piece of subtle acting I almost didn't expect for the black and white era-

Matthew 30:20

Yes ...

Ian 30:21

where you watch, where you watch Corporal John Bramble, like, realize and be grateful that his last name is also an alcoholic drink.

Matthew 30:29

Is it really? I don't know.

Ian 30:31

Yeah. Oh, bramble?

Matthew 30:33

Yeah.

Ian 30:34

Yeah. No, no, that's a- Oh ... uh, that's a gin and lemon juice cocktail. Oh, okay. Commonly, commonly served with, like, a bunch of fruit juice in it. So you could add, like, you know, cranberry juice or whatever, or blackberry or something in it, and you make this as a gin cocktail. So, so- But if you sit it around for a long time, it might turn brown. So

Matthew 30:57

you mix- So bramble is gin and juice?

Ian 30:59

Yes, actually. Yes, it is. Oh, goodness. I'm putting this together.

Matthew 31:04

And it confuses the Italian because he takes a sip, and, "If I didn't know it was bramble, I thought it w- I would think it was whiskey."

Ian 31:10

Yeah. Oh, it also has creme liqueur in it, so.

Matthew 31:12

Oh, cool.

Ian 31:13

But no, yeah, it's a, it's an actual drink. So there's this, like... Oh, there's this brilliant, "Oh, thank goodness my name is what it is." But yeah, he goes from survive to infiltrate to assassinate to escape.

Matthew 31:32

Yes.

Ian 31:32

And- That is what his sequence becomes. Meanwhile, Mouche is doing her own thing

Matthew 31:37

Yes And that's- 'Cause she had... There's a reason why she hung around and waited for the Germans, because she wanted to make a deal with the Germans

Ian 31:45

Mm-hmm. Her brother is in a prison camp

Matthew 31:51

Yep. She had two brothers. One was killed at Dunkirk. One was captured at Dunkirk, has been in a, been in a prison camp since then. Yes. And this is why she despises the British, 'cause she blames them for abandoning the French Yep.

Ian 32:08

So she thinks she can make a deal to get her brother free And that's just, it's such a, such a heartbreaking bit of the story, I will say.

Matthew 32:16

Right.

Ian 32:17

as she goes through trying to convince Rommel, trying to convince different members of the, the officers to send the paperwork to free him.

Matthew 32:31

Yeah. And Rommel's having none of it. Again, we're s- we're seeing his discipline as a pathology at some point, where he, he doesn't like to deal with women in the morning. Not even sure he likes women in general from the way they portray him.

Ian 32:46

Yeah.

Matthew 32:47

Um, he, he's not interested in her story. If you, uh, any appeals for the release of prisoners should be s- has to be sent to the commandant of the prison camp, or they can be sent through the Red Cross or the Quakers, and they should be sent in triplicate. Doesn't matter who you, how... You go through one of these channels, make sure it's in triplicate. We need paper in Germany.

Ian 33:13

There's something very threatening there where it's like he's looking at this and saying paperwork 'cause it'll slow down, but also it's like those are all, you know, wrappings for more, you know, bullet casings or something. Right. It's like, oh.

Matthew 33:25

And then, so instead she, where she is kind of approached by the lieutenant who's had, uh, an eye for her- Yes since they all arrived, and he is kind of the operational commander keeping this, this, uh, headquarters running and, uh, reports to Rommel. And he is offering to put in a good word and send telegrams to Berlin and get all this straightened out. "Of course, you could be nice to me for doing all this to you or for you."

Ian 33:53

Yeah. I feel like her story gets moving and then is ground to a halt by the, uh, by the main story, though.

Matthew 34:03

It is. Her story is partly to, to give us a counterpoint to the, ups and downs of the main story, where we see the ups and downs of, of her story, her difference, her shifting feelings and opinions about, Corporal Bramble. And ultimately, it gives us a way to show how here's a person who we can understand her feelings, and she comes to see the Germans the way one should see the Germans because she sees how they actually behave, and the fact that she's being either ignored or deceived by them. And there is no way to make a deal with these people because they're, they're beyond, honor.

none 34:52

Mm.

Matthew 34:52

Rommel's discipline notwithstanding

Ian 34:54

And I, I don't know where to, what to think about this part because it's, it's during, like, it, this all comes to a head during, uh, a bombing at night.

Matthew 35:06

Yeah. The Br- the RAF come and, and try to bomb out this headquarters where the, uh, the Germans are stationed. Mm-hmm. So everybody has to go down to the cellar.

Ian 35:16

And that, that leads to, uh, people figuring out that, uh, John Bramble is not actually Davos. That results in, you know, deaths of some of the officers, uh, on the German side, which ruins Mouche's plans.

Matthew 35:34

Mm-hmm. And it's a great twist at the end in that just as- Bramble is discovering the information that he needs and figuring out a way to get it because he is about to be sent by Rommel to Cairo. Great.

Ian 35:48

Yes.

Matthew 35:48

I'll just get, make sure I- Yeah ... got the information. I'll take Rommel's ride to Cairo, uh, in advance of Rommel so supposedly Davos could work for Rommel there. But I'll get this information to the British who are there. And that is undermined by this air raid and the fact that they've gotta, uh, gotta all go down to the, the cellar. And it turns into an action scene at the end where the lieutenant knows that Bramble is not Davos.

Ian 36:19

Absolutely. I will say it's a nice action scene though, because it's an action scene while the entire building is being bombed and shaking, that runs up into the rest of the building. And all of these places we've been seeing this slow, tense spy action happening turns into the environment for a gun fight.

Matthew 36:43

Oh, that's a great

Ian 36:44

idea. Running, running and chasing through the building. Yeah. Some of these rooms we saw before get s- shown again with such a different context.

Matthew 36:51

They had educated us about this geography already. You're right. So it- Mm-hmm ... they didn't have to explain the environment in any way because we had already been there, and it had been this thriller pressure cooker where these little tense conversations happening in the hallways, or as people moved from one part of the hotel to another, and we learned what parts were still working, what parts had been damaged in the prior fighting, and all of that paid off.

Ian 37:20

Yep.

Matthew 37:20

And I love the fact that in that fi- that, that last shot, so to speak, of the, the, the chase and the fight between Bramble and the lieutenant, when they finally catch up with each other and collide, the flashlight the lieutenant had been carrying is dropped, and the rest of that fight scene happens as just a close-up on this flashlight as the fight is happening- Yes somewhere in the dark behind them. Mm-hmm. And they don't show us what was happening, and we hear a gunshot. We don't know at first. Yeah. What was the result?

Ian 37:54

The, I was saying before how the camera stays with John, but it actually doesn't for this one moment. This one important time.

Matthew 38:01

Yeah,

Ian 38:02

it'll follow Mouche and such, it'll follow, like, the story, but this is a moment of the story that the camera decides it can't watch.

Matthew 38:08

This one scene- Mm-hmm we don't even get to see what's happening. Which is great for tension. It's, it can be done- Oh, yes ... it can be overdone, it can be done poorly. I think if that shot were a second or two longer, it would've been too much. It was really properly put together.

Ian 38:27

There's a reason why this was nominated for best cinematography and best film editing at the 16th Academy Awards.

Matthew 38:35

Mm. It was-

Ian 38:36

Also, the 16th Academy Awards.

Matthew 38:38

Yes. But yes, very well-edited Yeah,

Ian 38:40

but there's... Very well-edited, very well, very great cinematography on this.

Matthew 38:45

And something Mrs. Darling- All of these moments are brilliant ... pointed out as we finished watching this, the pacing of this movie feels so current, it feels so modern. We've talked about- Yes ... some movies, especially if you go back this far, some movies, they're just, they're paced a little more leisurely. They are... You've gotta stick with a scene longer than you think you should before it goes to the next action beat. Here, it is moving. It's about a, it's just over 90 minutes.

And it keeps moving constantly.

Ian 39:17

Oh, yes.

Matthew 39:18

And part of that is the great editing.

Ian 39:21

Mm-hmm. And yeah, this, this is definitely a, you know, edge-of-your-seat kind of thriller the entire time, I'd say. Even with its comedy c- cutting in there, it's still just really great. but yeah, the gunshot happens and Oh, how much of that do we wanna say?

Matthew 39:46

Well, I think we can, without giving away the, the fun mystery part of it-

Ian 39:51

Yeah ...

Matthew 39:51

we can talk about the happy ending, partly because, well, this was released- Happy ending? Yeah, let me back that up. We can talk about the militarily advantageous ending.

Ian 40:05

That's a good

Matthew 40:06

ending. And the very sad ending for our characters. Yes.

Ian 40:09

Yes.

Matthew 40:10

Because this was released in May of '43.

Ian 40:13

Mm-hmm.

Matthew 40:13

Which was essentially the month of the Allied victory in North Africa. Yep. So talk about something that had a timely production and release date, and probably some very last-minute additions to the epilogue.

Ian 40:28

Which is why the epilogue feels like the weirdest edited portion.

Matthew 40:31

Yes. Because, Bramble does get the information he needs. He does get the ride to Cairo, courtesy of Rommel, who thinks, uh, Davos is going ahead to work for him. And then we get an epilogue about, the victory. But before Bramble leaves the hotel Mouche essentially takes the fall for the death of the lieutenant

Ian 40:57

Mm-hmm. And- Kind of blaming him not actually living up to the deal that he'd made to, uh, save her brother.

Matthew 41:06

Yes. And Bramble and Farid have a plan to plant e- once, once, uh, Davos is away, they have a plan to plant evidence to make it clear to the Germans that, that Davos is responsible for the lieutenant's death and thereby save, uh, Mouche. But that does not quite work, as we learn later.

Ian 41:31

Yeah. So the information gets there, Rommel is defeated, but when Bramble comes back to the hotel to try to visit these people and, you know, celebrate the fact that they, that, you know, this has succeeded, he finds Farid there explaining where Mouche's grave is.

Matthew 41:55

Yes. because, uh, she was killed by the Germans after Bramble left for Cairo.

none 42:02

Mm-hmm.

Matthew 42:03

And it's not that the evidence that they planted to clear her of the death of the lieutenant didn't work. Apparently, that did work, and she was acquitted of that.

Ian 42:16

Mm-hmm.

Matthew 42:17

But she was still, she was found guilty on other charges, essentially for undermining the discipline of , the German officer corps.

Ian 42:28

Exactly.

Matthew 42:29

And I think technically this was because she had hatched this scheme with the lieutenant.

Ian 42:36

Yeah. They, they're using the fact that she had convinced an officer to go outside of the normal channels- Oh as a, "Oh, you've already, you've already corrupted our men, and we have to prove that that isn't allowed." And then to double down on it, she's there chanting about how, "The British will be back. You're all villains." Because Bramble has so changed her heart that they add that on on top of it. They were gonna shoot her for stuff that happened during the movie ahead of time, and yet we learn she doubled down at the end on Bramble's side.

Matthew 43:10

And to hear Farid tell to Bramble, that's the real reason that Rommel wanted her shot- Mm ... was because she kept saying, "The British are going to be back." And at the very beginning of the movie, she's telling Bramble, you know, "Since when do the British come back? They abandoned everybody at Dunkirk. They never come back. They d- just abandon people." And now she is shouting at the Germans, "The British are gonna be back and show you what for." Yes. And Farid says that's why Rommel wanted her killed, even if they came up with this other technicality as to why they were justified in doing so.

Because evidently Bramble got the information to the British in Cairo. They were able to use that information to turn the war around, and this is why Afrika Korps were in, in route, and the, the British then roll into the same tiny, half-destroyed town to, to the same hotel. And- Yep ... Bramble is once again on a tank crew as part of this triumphant, entry. Yes. And I was talking about the way they portrayed the entry of the Germans into this little town earlier. Mm-hmm. It's such a contrast to the way they portray the Allied forces rolling into this town at the end. larger in force and much more disciplined and much- Yes purposeful. They are a well-commanded and well-trained military force, an army here to liberate- Mm-hmm

as opposed to a gang showing up to take over the town, the way the Germans were portrayed.

Ian 44:51

Yeah. They're shown much more as a, a group of respectful gentlemen showing up and-

Matthew 44:56

Yeah ...

Ian 44:57

asking for rooms.

Matthew 44:58

Doing what they have to do, but, uh- Yeah ... but doing so in an honorable way. Mm-hmm. And we even see the, the Italian general again.

Ian 45:07

Yes. He's been captured.

Matthew 45:09

He is with the, the long lines of prisoners of war who are being marched to camps. And Bramble recognizes him because he's singing, as always.

Ian 45:18

Yep. And Bramble goes over and teases him, and there's this moment of, "Oh, wait, it's you." "Oh, very clever." odd bit of, uh, you know, respect and appreciation across, between the Italian general and, and Bramble

Matthew 45:31

And that general does not seem particularly less happy to have been captured by the Allies than he was supposedly working with the Germans

Ian 45:42

It's implied that he'll have better conditions and be a happier man because of it

Matthew 45:46

Yeah. But yeah, they, he also visits Mouche's grave

Ian 45:53

I feel like we're coming up to the end to our, to our final questions 'cause we're hitting the end of the movie.

Matthew 45:58

Yeah, I think we are. I think we've got a, some interesting things to talk about in terms of the final questions.

Ian 46:04

Mm-hmm.

Matthew 46:05

But in the meantime, as you stay tuned for those, answers about, do we recommend this movie? What, do we think might be interesting to do with this story and this idea in the future? In the meantime, if you are enjoying the IMMP podcast, first of all, thank you so much for listening. You're the reason we do this. But also, if you'd like more of the podcast, go to immproject.com, and that's where you'll find all of our back episodes, over 200 episodes now, plus some bonuses.

And at immproject.com, that's also where you will find ways to support the podcast. If you go on our Patreon, which you can find at that website, you will be able to, uh, both support the podcast and get additional audio content in bonuses on, on Patreon. And you can buy things at our shop if you like, T-shirts and coffee mugs and notebooks and other fun things, both about the podcast and about some of the fun things we've talked about over the years, like The Prisoner and Die Hard.

Uh, you can find- Yes ... the link there. And also at immproject.com, that's where you will find ways to contact us. And we would love to hear from you. What do you think of this movie? Do you have any favorite World War II movies or favorite Billy Wilder movies you think we should talk about on the podcast? Yeah. You can reach us on our Discord. You can reach us on Blue Sky and Mastodon. You can reach us by email, and you can reach us by actual honest-to-goodness, uh, mail with the, the US Postal Service.

Frodo 47:35

It's the mail. I'll get used to it.

Matthew 47:38

Mm-hmm. And, uh, we would love to hear from you in any of those, uh, those ways. But also, best way to support the podcast is share it with your friends, tell people about it, give us five stars wherever you get your podcasts.

Ian 47:51

Yeah.

Matthew 47:52

And Ian, uh, where can people find you?

Ian 47:54

Ah. I can be found as ItemCrafting. Be that ItemCrafting on Blue Sky, ItemCrafting, live on Twitch. Every Thursday, uh, I stream, uh, games and build crafts. So come on over, join, chat movies and everything else with me.

Matthew 48:13

I love the, the combination of things you've had on recent streams. Video games, b- old and new. Thank you. Some of the old ones are the most fun. But also- Oh, goodness ... miniatures painting- 24th Adventures ... and 3D printing and needle felting, all as part of the same podcast. Oh,

Ian 48:27

yeah. I love it. It's fun. And Dad, where can they find you?

Matthew 48:32

Well, uh, I am ByMatthewPorter most places I can be found, so the best thing to do is go to bymatthewporter.com, and that's where you will find links to what else I'm doing, including my YouTube channel, where I review movies and movie theater experiences, primarily all of my visits to the Alamo Drafthouse, and there are a shocking number of those each month. And also at bymatthewporter.com, you will be able to see my blog. You can subscribe to my, low traffic and zero spam newsletter to get the latest information about what I'm up to. And also at bymatthewporter.com, you'll find information about my book, "Questions For The Dead," which you can get from your local bookstore in paperback or your favorite online retailer in paperback or as an e-book.

Ian 49:20

it's a fun story. Oh. It's, honestly, you've, you've s- you've got a, an, an interesting and delightful, supernatural detective story. It, but it's very, very down to earth. I like it.

Matthew 49:33

It's kind of an X-Men, uh, Rockford Files mashup.

Ian 49:37

Oh, absolutely. Very much so

Matthew 49:42

All right, well-

Ian 49:42

Although the Rockman files are a different thing.

Matthew 49:44

The Rockman files.

Ian 49:47

Sorry. Just Mega Man. Uh- So

Matthew 49:54

well then final questions. First, first question it's a movie. Screen or no screen?

Ian 50:01

Ooh. That's a tricky one. Because honestly, Five Graves to Cairo is an excellent film, and yet I'm not sure if it would be everyone's cup of tea. I'm gonna say screen, but it's an especially a screen if you're a person who likes cinema. This is not always a fun movie to sit down and watch. It's very tense. It's very dramatic. Yes. It's, it's a little uncomfortably, like, constant, and yet it's very good. So if you're a person who likes the art of how movies are made and the way they are built and the structure, and you want to see something that has inspired a lot of other well-known directors nowadays, this is a great example.

Five Graves to Cairo is one of those movies that pops up on people's, you know, famous cinema lists of things to watch plenty. And I'm thinking, "Yeah, it's, it's worth that." I mean, it says something that in the modern day it's still getting, you know, 7.3s and 8s in review scores I just don't know if it's a, it's a great like, "Ooh, I'll pop in a movie." "Five Graves to Cairo" kind of thing.

Matthew 51:16

Yeah. It's, it's not gonna be a c- fun comfort watch necessarily.

Ian 51:20

Mm.

Matthew 51:20

Although, maybe it is, depending on your cup of tea. But I, I also say screen, especially if you like high-tension thrillers, because that's really what it is, even with its bit of levity, even with its patriotic war message from the time. If you w- and it's a, like we said, it's a shockingly modern movie in many ways for something made in 1943. So I, I recommend it, especially if you like that kind of movie. It's a great example of that. And as you say, if it, even if it's not a direct influence, it is a, a genre influence on a lot of what came after.

So I would say that if anybody really likes, uh, something as new as "The Night Manager"-

Ian 52:05

Yeah,

Matthew 52:06

honestly ... this is, this is a, a genre companion to "The Night Manager".

Ian 52:10

Oh, goodness. You could do an entire little, spy thriller, movie party. Put Five Graves to Cairo in that set is what I'm thinking.

Matthew 52:18

Oh, I think so.

Ian 52:19

Oh, yes.

Matthew 52:20

And-

Ian 52:20

You could also do I'm also thinking the, there's a very interesting double feature of, uh, Five Graves to Cairo and Key Largo.

Matthew 52:27

Hmm. Yeah.

Ian 52:28

Which is very much like people do you, stressed out people in a hotel.

Matthew 52:37

Yeah. It's, uh-

Ian 52:38

Yeah ...

Matthew 52:39

that's the, uh, I should have tried Airbnb double feature.

Ian 52:42

Exactly. Oof. Uh, oh, honestly, yeah. Night Manager, good, good recent pull, but yeah, it's similar pulling to that tone and everything else wise.

Matthew 52:56

So I, I say screen. Sounds like we're both on that.

Ian 52:59

I think we're on that.

Matthew 53:00

But the, m- uh, a tougher question as often is, uh, revive, reboot, or rest in peace? And for that, it's also useful to acknowledge the legacy of this movie because this movie was an adaptation. Yeah. It was based on a, a 1917 stage play From Hungary.

none 53:25

Mm-hmm.

Matthew 53:26

And there had been 1927 and 1939 film adaptations previously. It was written during the First World War, and it was, uh, so it was set in that context. And, so Five Graves to Cairo took this idea and brought it into the modern world, setting it in the North Africa campaign of the Second World War.

Ian 53:50

Yeah.

Matthew 53:51

I could, I could see and enjoy and understand a remake, so a reboot of this movie without necessarily needing one. I could see good directors and good actors doing a great job. Hey, if you were making, remaking this, I mentioned The Night Manager. If you were doing a remake of this, you could do far worse than casting Tom Hiddleston- Oh, yeah as Corporal Bramble. He'd do a great job of that. I don't know who you would, who you would cast as Rommel. Uh, Erich Von Stroheim, who plays Rommel in this movie, does a wonderful job of making him an imposing villain in the way we described.

Ian 54:30

Yes. Honestly, the fact, though, that the thing this is based on was not set when Five Graves to Cairo was. Five Graves to Cairo is an adaptation that moves a plot structure to another point in time. I think that really frees it up. I think Five Graves to Cairo is not a film to be remade. It, or a, a film to be rebooted or remade directly. I think it is a framework to be redone in a different era. Hmm. I could see a modern spy tech thriller that does Five Graves to Cairo in the era of satellites and GPS.

Matthew 55:13

Oh.

Ian 55:15

I look at Five Graves to Cairo and say, "This is a s- uh, this is a framework on which to build new stories," which is somewhere between that rest in peace and that revive, and that re- Oh ... that reboot-

Matthew 55:27

Yeah ...

Ian 55:27

elements that we have there. But the fact that the thing that it's based on was not set when the movie we're talking about was proves that this, this core, this bone structure fits, and you can adapt it for when the story is.

Matthew 55:42

So more of a genuine reboot in the same way that Five Graves to Cairo was a reboot of this 1917 play and this 1939 movie and so on.

Ian 55:52

Exactly.

Matthew 55:53

Huh. Now I'm imagining like a, a science fiction story with this, this, but set on the moon

Ian 56:00

or something.

Matthew 56:00

Oh.

Ian 56:01

Oh, you could absolutely do it Gi- give me four graves on the moon- ... and we have got a story

Matthew 56:10

That could be fun

Ian 56:12

Oh, yeah

Matthew 56:13

Five beacons to Tycho

Ian 56:17

Oh, I like it

Matthew 56:21

So yeah, this has, there's so much here, and it is such a, a solid but flexible plot that it would be interesting- Mm ... to see a reboot. I, I, to back up, I don't think we need a revival. I don't think we need, or I can't imagine how you would do anything that is either a- B- ... prequel or a sequel. I mean, you could say, tell the sad story of Mouche and her brothers. I don't know that there's n- anything we really need to know about Bramble. And, yeah, uh- And after the war and victory, he goes back to being an insurance agent in London.

Ian 56:55

Yeah, it either becomes The Further Adventures of John Bramble, or it becomes a really weird version of Fawlty Towers starring Farid.

Matthew 57:01

Yes. Yes, we get a sitcom set at the Empress of Britain Hotel starring Farid and whoever he recruits to work there.

Ian 57:10

That, I mean, that's neither path is great for this.

Matthew 57:13

The Italian general- ... musters out of the army after the war, comes back to work for Farid, and it's the two of them running a hotel.

Ian 57:25

Oh, my goodness. What have you built? Oh, I'm terrified that I can see how that would work.

Matthew 57:34

Absolutely could.

Ian 57:36

Oh, no. But no, I, yeah, I think, yeah. Yeah. But I, I think- Yeah ...

Matthew 57:40

um, a remake or a reboot of some kind would be fun, and it wouldn't... And you could change it enough that it wouldn't necessarily draw comparisons to this movie. It would be another advance of this really cool plot.

Ian 57:59

Yeah. Hmm.

Matthew 58:02

Well, this was fun. It really was. And this was another expanded multi-generational sharing of, of media because again, it was, um, I, I- Yeah learned about it from, from your mom, and she learned about it because it was, uh, a favorite of her dad's.

Ian 58:20

That is- It's, that is wonderful.

Matthew 58:23

And lots of love from the mom, our producer.

Ian 58:26

Yay. Yay. I'm very happy. I'm very happy to have gotten to watch this again because seeing it that first time when it's like, "Oh, hey, you know, there's this movie that means a lot to me, because it meant a lot to your grandfather". And now I'm getting to see it, and I, I enjoyed it that first time, and here I am eight years of podcast more skilled at media analysis, and I'm finding and feeling more about it and looking deeper. So I'm appreciating it.

Matthew 58:57

That's very cool. And audience- Yeah ... if you are interested in this movie, it's not super easy to find. It's not on any streaming services that I can find. I think it's available for digital rental or purchase, or I got a Blu-ray copy. I don't know that it's still in print, but it's out there and available, and this Blu-ray copy has a really good transfer. Makes it very, very watchable. Mm-hmm. So I, I can recommend looking for that if it's a movie that you think you'll want to, uh, to come back to and see multiple times.

Uh, when, when I was introduced to it, we would only see it when it showed up on the, the local movie blocks on local TV.

Ian 59:34

Oh, goodness.

Matthew 59:36

But yes, this was a, another fun, uh, a bit of media sharing, and, and this was the second of our two producer's prerogative episodes.

Ian 59:46

Oh, I definitely feel like that's a month style we're gonna come back to.

Matthew 59:49

I think so. I hope so 'cause there's so many cool movies that I learned about, uh, through Mrs. Darling Wife, and I'm sure that she's got others that she would recommend that we see.

Ian 59:59

Yay.

Matthew 1:00:00

But for the, for next month we are into October. Hard to believe.

Ian 1:00:04

Ooh.

Matthew 1:00:04

And that means we're going into our Halloween theme.

Ian 1:00:08

It's spooky season again.

Matthew 1:00:10

So we hope you will, uh, will join us then in a couple of weeks for spooky tales of media for the 20th century.

Ian 1:00:18

In the meantime, go find something new to watch.